Index:
1:00 – Immigration and adjusting to life in America
7:20 – Illegal and legal immigration
10:35 – Arriving in America, Chinese Beijing Person in New York City CCTV Show
18:45 – Cook, Cashier, Kitchen Aid roles in Chinese American takeout restaurants
24:45 – Less job opportunities in Chinese American takeout restaurants
27:30 – College and education
31:30 – Relative/kinship network
37:30 – Japanese restaurant, Chinese American takeout restaurant businesses fading due to low profit margin and physically tolling labor, business partnership
39:10 – Liquor store
45:30 – Employment Agencies, job stability in Chinese takeout restaurants
51:30 – Large takeout chains like Panda Express, Chinese immigrant job opportunities, Chinatown demographic
54:20 – Asian American Pacific Islander hate crimes
Transcript:
Today is April 3rd. My name is Jenny Cheng, and I am interviewing person A today.
What were your objectives? Were you planning to live in the US temporarily or did you envision the mind a more permanent life in America?
Person A: So, our family immigrated to the United States in 1994, back in June. Definitely, the plan is to get settled here. I came here with my siblings, my younger siblings, and my dad. And my mom is the one that actually filed the paperwork to get us here, so my mom was actually here in 1992. And it was already the goal that the minute that she received her green card in the mail, she’s going to stuff the filing process. So, the goal of our parents is to get out of China, knowing that if they continue living in China, they will have trouble raising five kids, afford them to go to school. We know that kids can get a lot of free and quality education in the United States, so we wanted to come here. And our families’, our goal is to start getting settled here and start our life here. And before we came here, we actually gave away all the house appliances to our relatives because we know that in a short period of time we’re not going go back. The equipment usually gets to be broken a few years later, so we actually gave all our good appliances to our relatives. By 1994, our whole families are already here.
How would you describe let’s say that your first five or ten years in America? How did your life and your family’s life change after moving America?
Person A: So, when we first came here, my mom worked in a garment factory, my dad started working as a kitchen aid in a Chinese takeout restaurant. When we first came here, we couldn’t even afford to rent a whole unit apartment. We ended up renting 2 rooms somewhere else. We call ourselves subletters, we were subleasing the apartment. We lived in Chinatown on Eldridge Street and the cross streets were Hester and also Canal Street. This is where we actually find a lot of people who speak our own language. And there are even other people live near Chinatown where they came in from our village or our next neighbor village. I started middle school; my sibling started elementary school. We only anticipate that, “OK if we learn enough English here, it will enable us to find a little bit better jobs that doesn’t require a lot of physical work.” We wanted to find a job where we can utilize some of the English that we learn here.
For you and your siblings, and then your parents as well, would you say your English levels were fluent enough that you were able to transition to life in New York easier? Or did you think that living in Chinatown, in a Chinese community, helped? Do you think it would be as easy to live in a non-Chinese neighborhood in New York City?
Person A: Living in Chinatown was definitely our only choice back then. Before we start school, we don’t know where to find school, so we luckily, we have an uncle and aunt who already came to the United States at least five years earlier than us and our cousins are older than us. We didn’t know that we have to get immunizations before we go to any school. We came here in June, and we would if we know how the school system work we will actually enroll ourselves into summer programs. At least it will prep us to get ready for the school year. We came from a small village town. So all the students there, they did not getting any English lessons until they are in middle school. I was only a fifth grader, still in elementary school so we did not know any English, even the 26 alphabets. We came here knowing nothing. Back then when we have to spell our names in English it was a struggle, it takes a lot of memory to get that. Luckily, all the English letters actually somehow also look the same as a Chinese pinyin, so at least we were able to know how to sign our names in English before we enter JFK airport because they have to ask you to sign all the documents. We definitely got a lot of help in actually navigating the school public school systems, we have aunt actually going around spend her day dates with time to help us getting our immunizations appointment set up, getting our first shot and second shot before the school started. The whole summer from June to August, the three month we actually, the kids were most times at home, locked up in a room while our parents were going to work.
I know you were young at the time, but do you know maybe like the reasoning behind why your parents had decided to move. What were the rationales behind moving to America, for your parents?
Person A: First of all, we’re not the first families in our extended family to come to the United States right so you know my parents are my mom my grandma my grandparents on my mom side they had the visa so we were able to actually come to this country legally. We also seen a lot of people really spend a lot of money to actually come to this country illegally, and then trying to get legal status, then trying to actually apply applications for the family to come. We are just little bit luckier than the rest. We have opportunity to come to this country legally. On my mom side, her parents were able to bring her here first. And then it’s the next step for her to file the paperwork for us. Let’s say if my mom did not come here legally, most likely it would be my dad trying to come here first illegally, and then trying to get a status. Or try to make a lot of money and come back and send us each illegally. So, we didn’t have to do it that route because lot of families in our towns, if they don’t have a legal way to come here, they will actually do it in illegal way. The illegal way will cause more, not only causing the money but also it can cause someone life. The kids were younger back, if my mom stayed in our hometown, usually women there are only housewife, so they don’t have opportunity to work. Even my dad, he makes barely minimum to raise all the kids. We just have the opportunity that we can come here legally, so why not.
If there were not a lot of opportunities in China. Would you say the change was very abrupt and was it positive?
Person A: I would say the first five years were definitely really struggle. Not only did we struggle financially but we also struggle economically. Coming here is not easy and even the paper what would cause my mom a lot of money, so she ended up having to borrow all those monies from our relative. She ended up having to borrowing enough to pay for the applications and everything. The first five years here even though my parents were able to find jobs, they are below the minimum job that people can find. My mom gets paid based on how much she produces. My dad gets paid in a monthly salary but back then when we came here in early 1990s, they weren’t a lot of takeout restaurants yet.
A lot of times, there were not even any opportunities. My dad has to be really careful in one job so that he doesn’t get fire or let go. So, the first five years we really struggled. That’s when I actually go to the garment factory to help my mom. Because what my mom makes it is based on her productivity, and there is small stuff there I can help. It was not only me, but all my siblings ended up working in the garment factory part time. Slowly, we were able to come out the money to buy good bad frames and TV’s. I remember we had to save a lot the first months to buy a TV. Some of us shared those bunkbeds, where it’s three layers. Daytimes, you put it back, in the nighttime you take it out. The first five years we really struggled but now you look back, all those struggled and hard times actually really build us and also makes us appreciate more of what we have right now. I do want to clarify that I was someone that was born in the 1980s and my parents who came here, they were born in the 1950s and the 1960s. It’s actually 30 years later, two at least two generations both sides, so their experience is definitely a lot different than mine.
What was your first impression of America? Did your family maintain contact with family members in China? Was there any plan in the family by anyone to maybe move back to China?
Person A: My first impressions in New York City was, “Wow.” We came in through the JFK airport at night and nighttime, if you are driving around sitting in a car, the night view of New York City is really, really glamorous and it looks really pretty. Back then, I was thinking, “Oh great, new environment.” So, I actually feel OK. As kids, we don’t really have a lot of strong feelings. I’m pretty sure my parents were going through a lot internally. I think that my parents are most likely nervous and thinking about how they can keep feeding five kids. I didn’t have a lot of strong impressions. For me I just feel like, “Oh it’s a new place. Am I going to live in the basement?”
Before we came here, we used to watch those TV’s at night times after the CCTV Main News. They had a really vivid show called Beijing Person in New York City, 北京人在纽约. It’s a TV drama but it’s based on the reality. So, we saw a lot of stuff on there. At one point in the TV show, they have someone speaking Fujianese and they filmed someone work in the garment factory. They also have a saying there, “If you go there, if you think that you’re going to hell then it will be hell. If you go there and think it’s a heaven, it’s heaven.” That will influence not only my parents I’m sure, but also with a lot of people who are a little bit older than me. I think that that TV show already give people an idea of how it looks if you live in New York City. They know what to expect if you were in the restaurant settings or if you were in the garment factory setting.
But I think my parents must be really having a lot of uncertainties in their hearts. As kids, I really, really feel homesick the first five years, especially the first two years. My grandparents on my mom side brought my mom here, they could not get use to this lifestyle. Living in New York City costs a lot more, so they decided to go back to China and settle in our hometown. I miss seeing my grandparents, I really feel homesick. But back then, we do not have the money to afford phone calls or airfare to go back. The first five years I really feel homesick, but I think that my siblings are not. Because they came here at a young age and they kind of get used to everything here, so they don’t feel homesick. I am, yeah.
All my mom’s side of the family came here because of an aunt. So, we had an aunt who is married to somebody who are pretty rich in the village. I know that uncle actually went to Hong Kong back in like early 1960s and 1970s. Later he managed to come to the United States, so he filed paper for my aunt. My aunt filed paperwork for her biological parent, which is my mom’s dad and mom. They know that if they couldn’t come to the United States then they will actually block the opportunity for their kids, which is my uncle and my mom. They brought my mom here first and then they went back. They couldn’t get used to the lifestyle you know here in New York. They don’t really speak language and they will live in one of my uncle’s houses. It’s one thing that you get along with the son but it’s another thing if you get along with your son’s wife, right? Also, back then, financially, everyone just had to work and make money ,so no one can actually stay home and taking care the elder. My grandparent decided to get settled in China, so they came back settled in China in 1992. After my mom got her green card in 1992, she is able to do the paper for all of us. Whatever my grandparent does doesn’t impact the way on my mom apply for our visa. We came here in 1994.
Your aunt, your uncle, your grandparents, and then also your parents, did they believe that moving to America would more opportunities and a better life? Why so? What were your parent’s envisioned goals for you and your siblings? Growing up, what did you envision your future to look like?
Person A: My parents, when they were in China, they considered themselves peasants. My dad actually doesn’t do farming, but they take whatever job they can get in the village. For my dad and my mom, I think that they just want their kids to come to the United States. If we make a dollar in the United States, it’s equivalent to 13 RMB in China, so whatever that we make here it’s definitely a lot more and can grow exponentially when you compare it to Chinese RMB. I think they might that my dad and my mom just wanted to make sure that we get off the country, that get out of our village. We just happen to have the opportunity to come here legally, so why not. I think that when we grow up we just want to make sure that we are able to actually make through to the 12th grade, in high school because you know my parents don’t need to pay for tuition. Back then, I was thinking I’ll just find a job in the restaurant but it’s not going to be a Cook or Kitchen Aid. It’s going to be a Cashier or a job where I will be speaking better English and understand customer more, so it will be a less physical demanding job. I actually never will anticipate that I could go to college. To me, if I can’t find a better paying jobs in the restaurants that allows me to use my English language skills, I think that I’m OK. So, I never anticipated I will actually go to college, moving out like this,
Could you elaborate a bit more on the Cook, the Kitchen Aid, and the Cashier roles in Chinese restaurants?
Person A: There are many types of restaurant businesses. The most common and popular ones operated by Chinese people, especially what they call Chinese takeout restaurants, it’s usually small operations. By small operations, I mean that you just need a store in order for you to open and you work in the kitchen. It doesn’t involve any of those fancy dining spaces, so it’s actually the less expensive investments because you only need to invest in creating a kitchen.
Usually, there are a few main roles in those takeout restaurants. There is a Cashier, who takes in the order, requiring him or her to use English. They take whatever the customer requests and then translate it back to the kitchen, so whoever they were as a cashier has to speak some English. Then we have what we call Cook, we don’t call Chef because being a Chef does require you to make lots of complicated dishes, but the Cook in the Chinese takeout have a standard set of menus they prepare. Not only they will cook those you know regular food like General Tso Chicken or Chicken Broccoli, they also prepare those ingredients before the business start. They are not only there to cook but they also have to know how to prepare some of those ingredients, how to process the chicken meat before they even actually start cooking them. Usually, a third one that’s going to be here is the Kitchen Aid. The Kitchen Aid get to handle the most entry level jobs and also the most physical demanding jobs. The Kitchen Aid usually get the least paid.
Chinese takeout restaurants usually operate 364 days per year. Usually, if you were in if you work in someone’s restaurant you work six days, you get the seventh day off. A lot of the times, you know you find that if you have one Cook then this Cook gets to have a day off, who’s going to do the cooking? So, a lot of people try to actually manage it by having their kids helping out or they will not have the day off. They would just have whatever the position they hired have the time off. They find their kids to actually sub. Earlier, I mentioned about three different roles, Cashier, Cook and also the Kitchen Aid. This is usually the typical Chinese restaurant and as long as you are able to get a job as a Kitchen Aid, your next goal is actually to become a Cook, where the job will pay you more and the job will also be less physical demanding. Still, you work 12 hours today a day and six days a week. A lot of Chinese takeout restaurants are in a not safe neighborhoods, working behind the bulletproof counters.
Did you ever work as a Cashier in Chinese To-Go restaurants? You also mentioned that your father started first as a Kitchen Aid. Has any other member of your family also worked in any of these three positions in Chinese restaurants?
Person A: I worked as a Cashier in few different restaurants. First, I started in college where I worked part-time. At some point, in between college and my first job in a nonprofit organization, I worked full-time. Even when I had the full-time job, because I only work five days a week, I still worked as a part-time Cashier in my parent’s restaurant. I would say I had more than ten years of experience working in Chinese takeout restaurants as a Cashier.
I think my dad first started as a Kitchen Aid. As a Kitchen Aid, if you work in the restaurant with the Cook doesn’t want to teach you any skills, then it will take longer. Back then, the Chinese restaurant positions are really limited so Cooks naturally doesn’t want to train you. Because once you become a Cook, he might get replaced, his job is replaceable. So, my dad actually worked in those random takeout restaurants as a Kitchen Aid and slowly, he tried to learn all those skills. Although not voluntarily by the Cook, but he learned those skills and he end up actually working in one of our relatives’ restaurant, where they purposely let him practice and learn. I will say maybe two years later he became an official Cook.
When you work as a Cook, you have to know everything. I think that if someone is intentionally trying to promote and prepare someone from the Kitchen Aid to Cook position, maybe half a year will be good [enough]. But for someone like my dad, who first working in the outside restaurants, then it takes a little bit longer because like I said. back in the 1990s, there are less Chinese people, less Fujianese people operating Chinese restaurants so the job opportunity is actually less.
My mom used to work in the garment factories because my mom doesn’t speak even Chinese Mandarin, she grew up not going to school at all. When we open our own restaurant, my dad worked as a Cook and my mom as a Kitchen Aid. She works on all those jobs that Kitchen Aid could handle, except mopping the floor because the bucket for mopping the floor is really heavy, most women cannot handle it so that ended up being my dad’s job. So, my parents, one work as a Cook, one as a Kitchen Aid, for seven days a week, for a couple of years. Then we hired a Cashier because back then we were still in school. This person usually have either Saturday or Sunday off, then we will go and help.
Your dad worked as a Cook and your mother as a Kitchen Aid in the same restaurant. Were there others benefits to working in the same restaurant versus from restaurant before they opened their own restaurant?
Person A: One thing to clarify, before we open our restaurant, my mom was still working at the factories the whole time. The only time my mom works in the Chinese takeout restaurant is when we have our own. Normally, any takeout restaurant they hire woman as a Cashier, but they would never hire a woman as a Kitchen Aid. Like I said earlier, a lot of times, women just cannot handle a lot of jobs that man does, especially when it comes to lifting those like heavy stuff. So, the reason why we had a restaurant because we want some stable income. Even purchasing that restaurant cost us a lot of money, but at least we can have the opportunity to really get stable income. Because my mom were the factory and there are a lot of what we call peak times and there are a lot of non-peak times. How much money my mom can make in the factory is really out of her control. Restaurants is slightly different but if we never own a restaurant, then my mom will never end up working as a Kitchen Aid. At the same time, back then my mom can only get the factory jobs, nothing else because she actually did not even know Chinese that well.
Speaking of my parent’s education opportunities, most people in their generations don’t get to go to school. Big families usually have a lot of siblings and when the parents had to prioritize and afford to send one kid to school, it’s always the male and it’s always the older male. My dad is one of the seven kids from his family, and he has two older brothers so in his family, only his oldest brothers get to attend schools. This uncle has to go to another village for middle school, so this uncle is the most educated one on my dad’s side. The same goes my mom side. My mom came from a family where she is one of the eight. She has one younger brother and everything everyone else is older. My mom’s older brother gets to go to at least middle school and everybody else is only able to make it through, not even elementary school. Back then, they will have elementary schools in their own village and then they had to travel far to another village be in middle school, where they had to recruit students from many different villages. Back then, when they grew, it was the Cultural Revolution, so not everyone can actually go to school and going to school might not necessarily be the best thing.
For your parents, what was it like after primary education, after they left school? In America, did all your siblings finish high school? Was it expected to go to college and did all your siblings attend college?
Person A: My second sibling started fourth grade, two other siblings started third grade, and my brother, who’s the youngest in the family number five in the family and the only boy, he started first grade. I think that because I went to college, they know that going to college is possible for them and if they don’t go to college, they might end up just working like our parents, where they most they can work in the restaurant industry. They all completed high school here and they all make it through college for their four years bachelor’s degrees and now they all go back to school to work on their master’s degree. My brother finished his master’s, one of my siblings already finished her master’s, the other one is working toward. My second sister it’s going to and same with me. Right now, I work in a nonprofit organization, and I do have the relevant experience, but I don’t have a higher degree, my career is going to get stuck right there.
If my parents have a better education in China, if they were able to go to school in China, and learn more Chinese, I think they would be actually easier for them to pick up some basic English here. They don’t even have opportunity go to any of the English classes here but even if they do, because they don’t know a lot of Chinese, it’s going be really difficult for them. Now for all my siblings, English is more like a natural language to them than Chinese. A lot of times, they use English more than Chinese, especially my brother who came here at the younger age.
Did your parents factor in their speaking and comprehension abilities into where they decided to open their restaurant?
Person A: They always want to have a restaurant that’s close to where their kids are. Because we live in New York City, so we end up actually going to schools, except for my brother, the four of us attend these schools in New York City. Back then, because most of our relatives have takeout restaurants in the Brooklyn area and my dad knows how that area of restaurants operate, we decide that we want to be actually close to our relatives in case there are times where we might not know how to handle one thing because relatives will know. We really help each other out.
Owning a takeout restaurant in New York City actually cost less and doesn’t require us to move out right. Back then, we had a Chinatown apartment that affordable, so we don’t want to move out. We know that we can fully take advantage of the subway systems, so we don’t have to own a car. If we own a car, we have to learn to how to drive and this stuff. In New York City, it will to be easier and that way, it’s also easier for us to really chip in and help out part-time. That is something my parents do. Unlike other folks that move out of New York City, they decide to settle in another state, they need cars, they need to find new places, and the investment is definitely a lot more. My parents still want us to go to school and then we can still help out part-time, so we don’t have to quit school.
What about now? Is your immediate family all situated in New York City? Are many of your relatives also reside in New York City?
Person A: We have relatives all spread around in the United States. We have some relatives still operating restaurants, but they are actually not in New York City. Where my dad and my mom live is in Brooklyn and where other Chinese residents live nearby. The real estate costs a lot more in those neighborhoods, speaking their own language, and then they can shop for Chinese food. That’s something that [suits] my parents now that they are getting settled. With us, I would say we can actually live anywhere, there’s no such thing as we have to get to this neighborhood or that neighborhood. And in fact, half of my siblings are not New York City, they are in DC or Virginia.
For a lot of your relatives who also immigrate to America in a similar fashion as your family, did that they also start in garment factories? Did they also worked as Kitchen Aids and Cooks, gradually opening own restaurants later?
Person A: [There is] one thing I do want to actually clarify before I answer the questions. Most of our relatives working the restaurants right now and some are transitioning from takeout restaurants to liquor store. What’s difference between other relatives and our family is my mom can be a first. My mom did not have a choice but only work in the garment factory. I mean she is the one that came here first and then she gets settled and then my dad and us here. But all my other uncles and aunts, usually my uncles came here before my aunts arrived. For all the guys, males usually they get settled in the Chinese restaurant first. They build up their skills and have enough financial stabilities, and then they bring their families here.
In a way, I would say we started off [having] a weaker foundation compared to other folks. Lots of my uncles my aunts, their kids came here when their kids are going to high school. Usually with immigrant families, when you immigrant here in high school, it’s really difficult for them to pick up English and then make it through college. Most of them do end up just finishing high school and then they will work in the restaurant, so that’s different. With then, they are definitely doing financially better. Even though were the same generations, my cousins and I, but we actually have a different path. My siblings and I, we choose higher education but then my cousins just end up working restaurant, so they start to make money earlier than us. When we spend four years in school, they really start making monies. That is the difference. My aunt sand never read a garment factory.
Would you say as a garment factory worker at the labor itself was more tolling than restaurant work? Would describe it that way?
Person A: Yes, and also in in the garment factory you really had to be a fighter. Sometimes, you have to be nasty to get the things you want. What you make is based on your quality so a lot of times I know people actually show their most nasty sides. If you don’t fight or if you are actually a more gentle person, you’re not going to get your way. There has been a lot of drama happening and I even witnessed myself back then. When I’m working the garment factory, I was I was literally telling that to myself, “Man, I really hope my dad had a restaurant, so all families can work together.” Back then, typical restaurant hours will be from 10am to 12am. Garment factories were worst, you had to start your day at 7am or 8am in the morning and then if you want to make more money, you’re going to sow more then you need to spend more time sewing and you don’t end up going home until 11 pm or 12am.
The work itself is hard but also the environment is cruel. Back then, to me, if I get to work in the restaurant over the garment factory, it’s like a blessing. I really ,really get intimidated. Now, when I still think about it, it was like a nightmare working the garment factory because a lot of people are really mean. They really showed their meanest side.
I’ve also heard there are like Chinese immigrants now who prefer to work like Japanese restaurant. Could you elaborate a little more on what you think about these different types of labor?
Person A: When you work in the Chinese takeout restaurant, it’s more labor-intensive and the profit margin is lower. It costs a lot more to actually get those ingredients for those restaurants. Japanese food is actually a lot more high-scale and then also the profit margin is a lot more. You can actually make more money out of it and it’s also less labor-intensive. People in my generation will work hard to support their kids to have a better future. Slowly, the Chinese takeout restaurant started to fade out because it’s hard to actually operate any restaurant anymore. A lot of people don’t even want to work in the restaurant because they just more labor -ntensive and you probably read the least, so some people have been transitioning. If it’s not somebody like me who continue to work in the office, some of the reasons they chose to work in the restaurant is because they have other family members that work in the restaurant so sometimes it’s what we call partnership. If you have a set of husband and wife, if the husband actually were in the restaurant, the wife probably will choose to help.
I will say Chinese takeout restaurant now is the least wanted job that people want because it’s still long hours, six days a week. It’s still a physically demanding job. And then the next one I will say the Japanese restaurants, In the restaurant industry, it is different these days. There’s a lot of limitations and restrictions and ow that COVID hits people really hard, a lot of people actually don’t want to be working those type of industry anymore because it’s just harder. You know you had to buy insurance, you have to deal with IRS, you have to deal with Health Department, you have to deal with customers. I think that for those Japanese restaurants, people know more about it so once you know more, you want to actually putting your entrepreneurship cap on that.
For those people who were in the liquor store, it’s definitely less physically demanding and also less hours. Liquor stores usually will open fund 10:00 o’clock to until 6/7pm so it’s almost less hours per day. Actually, if you do have a couple with working in the liquor store, you could pick up your kids from school, dropping off your kids after school, be able to really raise the families in addition to handling the job. But in takeout restaurants, I don’t think you can do it, right? If you really work until 11/12 at nighttime, you take a shower, you go to sleep you’re not going to have the energy wake up next day around 6:30/7 o’clock to bring your kids to school. Most of our restaurants is not in what we call community-friendly neighborhoods, so now the folks don’t even want their kids to be in those type of schools. They want to bring their kids to schools in Chinatown, where it’s better ranking Because school violence also something that you don’t want your kids to experience.
You mentioned that a lot of these restaurants are in not so friendly neighborhoods. Could you elaborate a little more on why that is? What is demographic of customers who would eat at a lot of these Chinese To-Go restaurants that you or your relatives own in Brooklyn?
Person A: Chinese takeout restaurants sells the least expensive food, food you can still actually fill out your stomach at the end of the day. Lots of the relatives that I know and even our own restaurant was situated in a neighborhood where I know that people will actually come for Chinese food because it costs less you still get substantial amount of food. For example, if you want to have a takeout restaurant in like downtown areas, I mean people will mostly go for lunch but at the end of the day, they really want to enjoy a nice dinner, maybe at a dining place. I don’t think that you know we will actually survive in those expensive neighborhoods. These days, it’s even worse because there’s many different delivery options so a lot of people will, based on what they make, they don’t mind spending some extra bucks to get it delivered. Because we have been working in the takeover restaurants in those type of neighborhood for a while, we know the neighborhood pretty well. As I mentioned earlier, we do have investments that we still do make, so it’s not like you pay $2000 you own a restaurant. The restaurant equipment and stuff used to be $100,000 at least, nowadays it’s even more. It’s also big investment that we’re not going to earn those monies in the next couple years. That’s why we always want to ten years lease, we don’t want anything that’s five years, or three years. Because it’s also investment that we make into it. But some people, if they’re looking for stability or if they have kids that can help out, they want to actually afford them a stable job. If you work in takeout restaurant, you could be jumping from one store to the other. I think stability is really important, especially people with my parent’s generations. Before we own a restaurant, there will be times where sometimes it’s not even his [the dad’s] fault, but somebody in the restaurant just doesn’t get along, or things just doesn’t work out. Then I know the next day, he’s already worried about, oh he’s got to go out and find a job. Because when you hand stop, then you mouth stops, meaning that you don’t have money to feed yourself.
Your parents received help in starting their own Chinese restaurant. Did your parents also provide that help to other relatives who later decided to also open restaurants? Could you elaborate more on how this network works?
Person A: The way we share is for example is that, if there is a dish in my place that very well, usually we would share ingredients. “This is actually really popular, you know this type of General Tso Chicken sauce is really popular, why don’t we just use that and see if actually working in your neighborhood?” Usually if we are around the same type of neighborhood, one thing that work well for one restaurant will work well for the other restaurant. It could be something like we have the health department who visit us once a year and they will issue citations and violations. So, if there is something that we notice that the department told us is a violation, we will share it. When other relatives’ restaurants get a visit one day, they will actually avoid that issue from [as a result of] sharing the resources.
Or it could be a day where they have to take care of some paperwork and then my parents will help, because I really help my parents taking care of the paperwork and matter it’s just a little bit more time to help them take care those. It could be that someone used to work in our restaurants but because he or she has to go back to China, when she or he come back we already had the replacement worker so they could be somebody that we can highly recommend it to others. There have been times where my dad’s only Cook in the restaurant and then one day, he has to attend a court hearing or something, we would just call other cousins. “Hey, I couldn’t find anybody to be the Cook for this day, for a few hours. Would you actually be able to come and help out for a few hours?” Sometimes, that could happen or sometimes, their [a relative’s] restaurant is missing somebody as Cashier or if someone just quit on them and they couldn’t find somebody until two days later, they will ask me for help.
So, we help, we shared resources, we should the best practices, and we also share tips on how to deal with our landlords, how to deal with our customers. We share tips like, “Oh, this restaurant supplies has the best chicken and it’s the cheapest option so why don’t you just use them for XYZ.” Those are the type of things [we share]. Also, most importantly, when we actually decide to buy that restaurant, we don’t have enough money, so we actually borrow from our relatives. It’s like a personal loan, no interest but it’s a good faith loan and it’s something that really helped us get things going.
Did your parents use Chinese associations at all when they were looking for jobs, when they were getting settled in America, to find workers after they have their restaurant? How much of this foundation and their lives relies on this family network, this extended family network, a network from China, that village network here now, versus bigger networks in Chinese communities or associations, etc.?
Person A: Before WeChat became really popular, the only place you can look for a job or finding workers is through those employment agencies. Let’s say if I’m the owner of the business, I need to look for a Cashier, then Jenny, you will actually go to that agency. They usually have a smaller office and booth in Chinatown, near East Broadway (工作介绍所). They connect you to me, you will have to pay them like a fee, introductory fee. It’s usually half of what you get paid for one day, so if you get paid for $80 you probably have to pay $30 for that. You get connected to us and when I need somebody, I just call them and say, “Hey, I’m hiring at this place. I’m hiring Cashier. This Cashier working our place will get paid how much I can pay,” and stuff like that. That’s one network, I don’t know if we are still using that right now, most likely not because right now a lot of people rely on WeChat to do lots of those postings.
Then the extended family network, we have different associations coming based on the villages. Usually, people from this village will know people from the next village pretty well. There are always family members marrying each other [between different villages]. We have those type of associations in Chinatown and they are always the beginners’ sources. Another reason we only a restaurant is because we want to offer ourselves stability. My dad is also gets a little bit older and believe it or not there’s age discriminations in workplaces as well. So, if they have the same positions open, they will hire somebody that’s 30 years old instead 50 years old. When you are older, it means that you are doing things slower. If I have the restaurant, even though I’m not the best, quickest worker but at least my wife can help out and it will be a lot more easier for my mom because you know it’s a stability thing and also avoid other dramas.
Back then, right after 9/11, that’s 2001, garment factor industry seems to really kind of disappear. There’s no more of that type of demand because they will be getting clothing from other countries. It will cost anybody a lot more to actually get things produced here, so that’s one point. Another reason is that there’s not the opportunities in the garment factory anymore. You can have like 300 people fighting for three person jobs [positions].
Do you have any members of your extended family that are involved in any of the associations and community organizations?
Person A: Not in the immediate extended families, but also there are folks from my dad’s side because they are here longer and they have the resources, they also have the monies. Usually with those who want to get involved in those associations, not only you had to contribute more, but you also had to volunteer your time. You also have to be able to at least read and write in Chinese, so if you don’t have any of those [skills] then you know even though you want to become one [a member], you might be limited in doing a lot of things. So, not our immediate families. I do know in our extended families, they are. Think of those people who want to involve as like the board members for the nonprofits. Their job is to raise money, raise fund, or get to be the one in charge of any of those. It usually requires somebody who’s been here longer enough, who actually have a very good reputation, and then who also had to know how to write and read. We don’t fit into any of those qualifications.
You’ve talked about how your parents prefer to live in communities where there are other Chinese immigrants, with ethnic Chinese populations. Are the restaurants that your parents have worked in also in the same neighborhoods that they lived in and if that was also the case for your relatives?
Person A: With our own case, our restaurant also is in a commercial building, where we have like residential units above us. Because we already have apartments in Chinatown and commute it’s not that difficult, we actually chose not to live upstairs. It’s also because kids were attending schools in Chinatown, but I do have other relatives have restaurants in one part of the building and they will live in another part of the building. Some they add when they save enough money, they actually are able to buy the whole building. And the reason why they want to buy the building is not because they wanted to, but if this restaurant is their only opportunity to really get a stable job and this is going to be something that they’re going to be working at 10 or 15, 20 years later, they don’t want to give other people a chance to really buy the building and then raise their restaurant rent triple. They want to actually afford them[selves] a opportunity but also stability. I have under relatives I know where they own the building, and they will of course live upstairs. Then they will actually operate restaurant downstairs. If the rent for any restaurant is getting too expensive, making it you’re not able to make any profits, then once the point of owning that restaurant?
Could you elaborate a bit more on the different Chinatowns you see now? Also, the relations between immigrants or between nonimmigrants and in the different groups in New York City. How the pandemic and rise in Asian hate crimes have affected these relations at all?
Person A: Later, if I’m missing anything please feel free to remind me because you’re asking big questions. I think that with the Chinese takeout restaurants, I can see people who were born in the 1970s, 1960s, and also 1980s continue working on it but anybody that actually is born after 1980s, possibly will not want to actually work in the takeout restaurant anymore because it’s not type of industry [people want to work in]. Slowly now, Chinese takeout restaurants also kind of fading out and people are more into that getting Uber Eats and things like that. Surprisingly, I noticed that huge chains like Panda Express, I’ve actually start to see a lot of them moving into New York City. So, I feel like those will be taking over, than our regular takeout restaurants. I see that for the past five years, at least I ten different Panda Expresses coming to New York City, used to only on the other side of the West Coast.
Also, lots of people from older generations like my parent’s generation, they retire, they don’t really have the physical strength to ownership anymore. It’s also really difficult to find workers, I think the Chinese takeout restaurant will eventually fade out and then the people who are beyond my generation [younger generation] definitely do not want to work in the Chinese restaurant. These days, because the Chinese immigrants are one of the fastest growing populations in New York City, there are ways where you can find jobs. It used to be that be Chinese takeover restaurants could be your own opportunity but there are a lot more options out there. Like I mentioned earlier, people are going to the Japanese food [business], people are actually choosing to own liquor stores. I even have cousins who used to work in the Chinese takeout restaurant for the past ten years. Now they switching to owning a liquor store, that is my cousins right who are also my age.
Speaking of Chinatowns, there are lot of Chinese communities. In each borough, except Staten Island and Bronx, in the other three boroughs, Brooklyn, Queens, and also Manhattan, you able to find those Chinatowns. The Chinatown in Lower East Side of Manhattan, that’s the oldest Chinatown. Folks that live there are the older immigrants, those who came to the United States in 1960s, 70s, and 80s. Then, we also have the newer Chinatowns, which is in Brooklyn. You can see a few of them. The 8th Ave one, most the Fujianese people live there. There is a 86 Street, Bensonhurst, lots of Cantonese speaking folks there and then there’s the Avenue U. In Flushing, there a lot more people from the northern part of China are there, or people from Taiwan. They will actually live near Flushing, Queens and then they have Elmhurst, which is also a newer neighborhood. I think that these are the neighborhoods and lots of the Chinese people like my parent’s generation love to buy houses in Queens and Brooklyn, near Chinese communities. For those of us like my generations who want to live with their parents because our parents were going to help us look at the grandkids, so usually we also pick the same neighborhood.
But with the AAPI (Asian American Pacific Islander) crimes, it’s actually a bigger thing. With everything going on right now, I don’t think things going to actually get a little bit better. But at least I know that might work out for this neighborhood, I still feel safe. I still feel safe but if you actually have asked me to walk in Bronx or Harlem, I won’t feel safe. I won’t feel safe.
What do you think about the relations between different ethnic groups?
Person A: I think that is definitely a lot of conflicts going on. But let’s say if you all come in from mainland China, there are northern part of China, there are southern part China. I won’t say you know we are as united as folks when we had the Black Lives Matter movement. I don’t think we’re really as united as those [groups] but I think that we’re working better now. There are more and more people speaking up and I’m hoping to see more people go for those government official positions. I’m hoping to see more and more people coming out to vote because the only way you can really make it influence to actually [take action?]. I know that at least your generation is a lot more outspoken us [Person A’s generation.]
I won’t expect our parent’s generation to really understand a lot of things going on. I know that they’re living in a good neighborhood, they’re living with us, I know that they’re safe. I’m just hoping that they don’t actually go out and [get] attacked by somebody. When I travel around, I do have fears. I think that in a way, the mask helps. The mask helps but the mask is also a way that people use to commit crimes.
What is your experience as an immigrant in the US, in New York City? Do you think growing up there were a lot of discriminations against Chinese immigrants?
Person A: Definitely after the pandemic, things are getting a lot worse. I really say it started with the previous president, Trump, who actually open help been making a lot of remarks, [including] anti-Chinese comments. Definitely getting worst and the fact that this covid, no matter what happens, I feel like they still blaming me us. So, I think that those type of natural disaster, what they call emergency international health crisis, I think it happens. It’s matter of how we deal, instead of just keep blaming it on us. Of course, Chinese government, I think that politics whether it’s in a communist countries like China or democratic country like United States. Government is always not really transparent with folks about a lot of stuff.
Anyway, it’s been getting worse, and I don’t see it getting better anytime. For me, I mean growing up here, there’s a lot of discrimination happening and it’s still going to be happening but it’s a matter of how we deal with it and cope with it. At least for now, I think that just where I am, meaning where I work in a nonprofit organization, at least this did not happen to me directly in my workplace. I think that the only way people can actually do change those things is to come out and vote or really vocalize our concerns to the government officials.
Thank you for your time today.